Yep, that whole Hamas thing was pretty interesting, I guess the ultimate "be careful of what you ask for", but I also thought it was fairly predictable. The Iran thing is something I really don't get a good feel for. I don't know who's opinion to trust on this one regarding the election. However, I do applaud the demonstrations and hope they continue. Reminds me of the beginnings of the demonstrations during the fall of the Shah, something the Morefield's probably remember quite well. Maybe this is the start of the same process toward a true democracy?

"I believe history shows that countries grow into it, slowly, if at all."

Like, for example, Japan and Germany, post-WWII????????? Israel, post-partition??? Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, (and many others) post-breakup of the Soviet Union?? Please. That is an ahistorical statement.

"I was suggesting that we look to our own history to see how painful, bumpy and tenuous the growth process is." So, the Civil War and Women's Suffrage and the antics of Crazy King George (he WAS dipshit insane, BTW), all excuse the mullahs beating and shooting people HOW, exactly?????? That we underwent some evolution over the last 200 years gives OTHERS a clear blueprint - "Well, let's see, hmm, we could give women the vote, like the U.S. did almost a century ago, and the UN Declaration on Human Rights requires, or we could continue to be a retrograde theocracy like Saudi Arabia, etc."


"I'm not sure that every government should be judged by the standard of its time. If that's true, Nero was okay, I guess."

No, Nero was a lunatic by the standards of his own time. How CAN you look back at, for example, a time when women had no rights in ANY society, and condemn them for not having the then-equivalent of the ERA???? Human society has evolved. Gays are still stoned to death in Islamic countries, but we CAN condemn that, because gays are being afforded equal or near-equal rights in most First World countries. In this time, equal treatment for gays is clearly the evolved position - but Muslims live in the 7th century, so I guess we should judge them by THOSE standards????

"And the Japanese were just trying to do what the British, French and Americans had done in the prior 100 years--colonize and dominate. So which time period should they be judged by...the one they just missed or the one that followed so closely on the heels of Occidental colonization."

What the British had pretty much stopped doing some time before, what the US had never done, etc. Colonialism was clearly dead by the time of the "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere" - the Japanese were a revanchist regime, and didn't much care.

As for the "dipshit insane," yes, it was out of line, and I apologize. Your post was a little offensive, in the sense that (i) ascribing to the right an "echo chamber" mentality - Puh-LEEZE! There IS no echo chamber more echoic than the left-wing punditocracy, and (ii) taking that old, tired "we shouldn't act superior, because we're no better" position. Sorry, doll, as Sylvio Berlusconi and Oriana Fallaci were brave enough to point out, we ARE better. And we should not hesitate to say so.

Also, isn't in inconsistent to argue, on the one hand, that we SHOULDN'T judge societies by the standards of their own time, and then argue that, because we did some bad things in the past, we're foreclosed from expecting others to live by the standards of today??? Somehow, that seems internally inconsistent to me.

Germany has condemned the elections and reaction to the demonstrations. France has condemned them. Heck, even CANADA has condemned them. Obama's excuse is BS - he took no position, and the mullahs are STILL protesting our "interference" - and he needs to man up and act like a world leader. Problem is, you can't have moral authority when you have no morality. If you go to Cairo, and claim that we are just as bad as the Muslim world, when that is DEMONSTRABLY false, I would suggest that this is the kind of reaction you might expect.

But your point was, let's see, "I don't think democracy is something that you can present to another country freeze dried and just add water. I believe history shows that countries grow into it, slowly, if at all." We DID hand Japan and Germany democracy, freeze dried, and added water. Japan became democratic overnight - almost literally. Yes, it was done at the point of a gun, but it was accomplished rather quickly, and with basically NO backsliding. The Japanese embraced the new way with some degree of enthusiasm. Germany had more resistance to occupation, but little to the change to government structures.


"We've seen how well that tactic is working for us in Iraq." Jeebus, I'm getting tired of hearing that from liberals. Even the effin' NY Times has admitted that Iraq is WORKING, now. Guess you didn't get the memo. Mistakes were made getting there, and it is unlikely ever to be a model that your OR I would point to as an "ideal example of democracy," but it IS working. Iraq is already the most democratic Arab/Muslim state - compare briefly with Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Syria, Jordan. You hate the Iraq War, I get it. Just don't be dishonest about what is and has been done there. There are valid and sufficient reasons to oppose that war (although the liberals frankly do a piss poor job of articulating them), but the results ain't one of them.

"As to the echo chamber, I'm surprised you don't feel there's one with conservative blogs, Fox Fear Network (thanks Erik for that turn of phrase) and Rush (among others). Didn't say there isn't one for the liberals too...but they have far less airtime (at least on talk radio)."

Thought experiment: Pick a major news issue. Check the editorial AND news positions on that issue of NY Times, LA Times, WAPo, Boston Globe, MSNBC, CNN, NBC, CBS and ABC (ABC doing an infomercial FROM THE WHITE HOUSE on Obamacare, with NO dissenting views being aired???? Whatever happened to independent journalism????). Find ANY major area on which there is ANY significant disagreement among them.

Take same issue and check WS Journal, American Spectator, National Review, Rush, Sean Hannity, Dennis Prager, and pick any three or four other right wing talk hosts. You will find AT LEAST three different views on the issue. Laura, I don't believe you've EVER listened to Limbaugh, or Laura Ingraham, or Dennis Prager, or Sean Hannity, for more than five minutes. I, OTOH, regularly read and listen to liberal sources - you need to know your enemy. Believe me, you liberals live in an echo chamber, and dissent is punished swiftly.

"BTW, tell the Hawaiians that we didn't colonize. They'd be surprised to hear it."

Words have meanings. We need to stop abusing them. Colonialism has a meaning which is quite inconsistent with making an island PART OF YOUR COUNTRY, by virtue of an overwhelming local plebescite. Did we engineer the takeover? Absolutely. Was our conduct disgraceful? Yep. Do Hawaiians have a legitimate beef? Well, they DID vote for statehood, rather overwhelmingly, so I'd say no, but YMMV. But we did NOT "colonize" Hawaii.